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How can this be recommended?
First off, no I have not seen this in person, but I've read 3-4 reviews now and it seems the overall opinion of the reviewer is "yes, it looks great for apps that were upgraded for Retina but other apps are worse than before". How can a product that makes any existing application look WORSE be a recommended product by gdgt? I get that EVENTUALLY things will likely look good, but that's EVENTUALLY. Right now they look like crap. I really don't see how this could be a recommended product.
Because a $2000+ notebook is a multi-year purchase. The future is part of the bargain.
And because “right now they look like crap” is a wild over-exaggeration of the scope of the issue.
(Note that I'm not the Gdgt reviewer, so I'm just speaking for myself here.)
And because “right now they look like crap” is a wild over-exaggeration of the scope of the issue.
(Note that I'm not the Gdgt reviewer, so I'm just speaking for myself here.)
It is great now.
Two can play your game:
Engadget ( www.engadget.com/2012/06/13/apple-macbook-pro-with...)
“It pushes and redefines the category, raising the bar higher than even its brethren can jump.”
SlashGear (www.slashgear.com/macbook-pro-with-retina-display-...)
“the inescapable truth is that any other notebook feels dreary and last-gen in comparison.... the new MacBook Pro’s display feels like what computing really should be”
Also, your Verge quote is interesting in context. They were calling out three specific examples of software that had jarring text issues, but went right on in the next paragraph to point out that lots of existing software (they mention IA Writer) is already getting the high-res text rendering.
Two can play your game:
Engadget ( www.engadget.com/2012/06/13/apple-macbook-pro-with...)
“It pushes and redefines the category, raising the bar higher than even its brethren can jump.”
SlashGear (www.slashgear.com/macbook-pro-with-retina-display-...)
“the inescapable truth is that any other notebook feels dreary and last-gen in comparison.... the new MacBook Pro’s display feels like what computing really should be”
Also, your Verge quote is interesting in context. They were calling out three specific examples of software that had jarring text issues, but went right on in the next paragraph to point out that lots of existing software (they mention IA Writer) is already getting the high-res text rendering.
I wasn't changing the subject, I was directly countering “If I was to spend $2000+ on a laptop I'd want it to be great NOW, not sometime in the future.”
As I understand it, you're saying that the screen looking less good on some (not all) third-party apps that have not been updated for it negates recommending the system as a whole.
I think the screen is a net gain right now today (this may vary from person to person, but for myself, the apps I use most often either have already updated or have announced upcoming updates to support Retina resolution) — and a huge gain over the life of the notebook.
If you're inextricably tied to some piece of software that does its own text rendering, and isn't updating soon, then this may not be the notebook for you. That doesn't make it a bad notebook; there are many notebooks that aren't right for any given individual. The new non-Retina MBP is a nice update if you are looking for a Mac. But you should at least be considering where things will stand in a year or two, along with where things stand today, if you plan to keep the system for a while.
As I understand it, you're saying that the screen looking less good on some (not all) third-party apps that have not been updated for it negates recommending the system as a whole.
I think the screen is a net gain right now today (this may vary from person to person, but for myself, the apps I use most often either have already updated or have announced upcoming updates to support Retina resolution) — and a huge gain over the life of the notebook.
If you're inextricably tied to some piece of software that does its own text rendering, and isn't updating soon, then this may not be the notebook for you. That doesn't make it a bad notebook; there are many notebooks that aren't right for any given individual. The new non-Retina MBP is a nice update if you are looking for a Mac. But you should at least be considering where things will stand in a year or two, along with where things stand today, if you plan to keep the system for a while.
I had an opportunity to try it yesterday, and I can safely say it is one of the best computers I have ever used. Ignoring the screen for a moment, it is amazingly fast and the design is amazing. They've also added an actual HDMI output and USB 3.0, which people have been wanting on MacBooks since forever ago. Add the screen in (which by the way, is as good as they say) and I see it as a VERY recommendable product if you've got the cash.
Most Apple apps have been updated to support the resolution already, and many third parties are already working on updates to their software and websites (many already out in beta as of a few days ago). So I expect that issue to fade away quite soon.
We also recommend products based on where they stand in today's ecosystem, and I can safely say this computer DEFINITELY stands out right now (and most likely will for some time).
You'll also notice that in our recommendation blurb on the product page, we actually mentioned that it isn't for everyone which is why we still recommend the MacBook Air 13-inch as the best laptop around.
"That said, if you can brave the sticker shock and you're willing to put up with apps not yet updated for Retina displays, this laptop stands alone. We suspect that for most people this machine will be out of reach, though, which is why we feel the MacBook Air 13-inch still has the best balance of portability, power, and price of any laptop out today."
But if someone walked up to me and asked "Hey, I have ~$2,200, what's the best laptop I can buy right now?" I would probably point them in the Retina's direction, not just because it's got the best screen available on a laptop today, but because it's a seriously great computer.
Most Apple apps have been updated to support the resolution already, and many third parties are already working on updates to their software and websites (many already out in beta as of a few days ago). So I expect that issue to fade away quite soon.
We also recommend products based on where they stand in today's ecosystem, and I can safely say this computer DEFINITELY stands out right now (and most likely will for some time).
You'll also notice that in our recommendation blurb on the product page, we actually mentioned that it isn't for everyone which is why we still recommend the MacBook Air 13-inch as the best laptop around.
"That said, if you can brave the sticker shock and you're willing to put up with apps not yet updated for Retina displays, this laptop stands alone. We suspect that for most people this machine will be out of reach, though, which is why we feel the MacBook Air 13-inch still has the best balance of portability, power, and price of any laptop out today."
But if someone walked up to me and asked "Hey, I have ~$2,200, what's the best laptop I can buy right now?" I would probably point them in the Retina's direction, not just because it's got the best screen available on a laptop today, but because it's a seriously great computer.
Ok, different question... if you take away the screen and take away the fact that it runs OS X, what differentiates this machine from the slew of laptops out there with SSD's, HDMI ports, USB3 and the latest Intel processors that are significantly less? Is OS X, a sleek hardware design and that screen all worth the significant cost increase, IYO?
This is an absurd comment and is effectively saying if you take away all sorts of unique traits, is it the same as every other computing laptop on the market? Yes!
"Is OS X, a sleek hardware design and that screen all worth the significant cost increase, IYO?"
If you aren't interested in OS X, sleek hardware design and the amazing screen why are you even looking at a Mac in the first place? Apple has always been more expensive than an equivalent (or even better) spec'd Windows box. It's the fact that this is the only OS X option is what makes it worth the while.
At this point though I presume you are trolling and will leave you to your business.
"Is OS X, a sleek hardware design and that screen all worth the significant cost increase, IYO?"
If you aren't interested in OS X, sleek hardware design and the amazing screen why are you even looking at a Mac in the first place? Apple has always been more expensive than an equivalent (or even better) spec'd Windows box. It's the fact that this is the only OS X option is what makes it worth the while.
At this point though I presume you are trolling and will leave you to your business.
Right on. “If you take away the unique differentiating features, it doesn't have any unique differentiating features!” :-P
My point was that OS X can't be put on other hardware, so it's irrelevant in a comparison against other laptops. Sleak hardware design, IMO, is worthless so I don't care about that. As for the screen, it doesn't sound like it's all that great if it doesn't make the entire experience better and it doesn't sound like it does since apps have to be updated to look correct on it and not all are.
Additionally, the USB 3.0, the HDMI port, the SSD drive and the latest Intel hardware are all specs that have been found on other laptops that have already been released, so I don't see what's so "futuristic" about the new MacBook except for the screen that really doesn't seem like that great of a selling point right now.
One more point, and then I'll probably leave this thread alone.
Early releases of Mac OS X could run OS 9 software in Classic, but it was weird and slow. Windows 95, 2000 and Vista each left a lot of legacy software in the dust. The first Intel Macs ran a lot of PowerPC software great, but some of it was slow and some of it didn't work. Windows 8 has this weird dual personality with the Metro and Desktop interfaces, and will for the foreseeable future. The iPhone and iPad have been through Retina transitions.
When the first version of something awesome and new ships, there's always an awkward adolescence where you're living partly in the brave new world and partly in the past. If you want to wait until the tech has grown up, that's a reasonable choice, and the non-Retina MBP and Air are still around (and cheaper, to boot).
Though the design overall is nice, what is new, unique, futuristic and amazing about this new MacBook Pro is easy to discern: it's the screen. The ecosystem will take time to catch up. You can be on the leading edge of that change or you can wait; it's your call and it's your money.
Early releases of Mac OS X could run OS 9 software in Classic, but it was weird and slow. Windows 95, 2000 and Vista each left a lot of legacy software in the dust. The first Intel Macs ran a lot of PowerPC software great, but some of it was slow and some of it didn't work. Windows 8 has this weird dual personality with the Metro and Desktop interfaces, and will for the foreseeable future. The iPhone and iPad have been through Retina transitions.
When the first version of something awesome and new ships, there's always an awkward adolescence where you're living partly in the brave new world and partly in the past. If you want to wait until the tech has grown up, that's a reasonable choice, and the non-Retina MBP and Air are still around (and cheaper, to boot).
Though the design overall is nice, what is new, unique, futuristic and amazing about this new MacBook Pro is easy to discern: it's the screen. The ecosystem will take time to catch up. You can be on the leading edge of that change or you can wait; it's your call and it's your money.
Completely agree with you on that Dan. This is the bleeding edge of the bleeding edge and thus comes with the same sort of price tag. The 8GB RAM upgrade to the 13" MacBook Air in my opinion is the sweet spot for most computer users. The only reason I am even interested in the MacBook Pro Retina is for the higher res and 16GB of RAM for virtualization and software development.
Seeing as how this is part of the MacBook Pro line, it is really targeted toward professional application and not general consumers, once again justifying the price.
Honestly right now for most general consumers, computers have gotten so fast for most all normal tasks (less gaming) that design is the only differentiation between laptops aside from OS.
Seeing as how this is part of the MacBook Pro line, it is really targeted toward professional application and not general consumers, once again justifying the price.
Honestly right now for most general consumers, computers have gotten so fast for most all normal tasks (less gaming) that design is the only differentiation between laptops aside from OS.
Nate, totally agree. This is supposed to be a high end system. I guess that's why I'm surprised that it isn't rendering "legacy" apps well. You say you don't see a problem but you're going against what most reviewers are saying. This seems like a lack of polish, IMO, that I don't expect to see from Apple.
Yah, I understand that my opinion doesn't seem to match up exactly with what the other reviewers are saying. What I can speak to though is that I had a chance to play with one for about 30 minutes at my local Apple store yesterday and I couldn't tell a significant enough difference to care. This was even at a much closer distance to the screen than I would normally have at home.
To be completely fair, there was a bit of a difference and an optimized app will look a lot better, but it just wasn't enough to care. Apple can't exactly force every developer to roll to retina support and wait to release their product until then so they put out a very nice display and the market will have to adapt.
The shame is that consumers go to review sites thinking that these are consumer grade products. In honesty, gdgt and other reviewers should do a better job in describing the ideal use case for some of these devices. To me recommending this MacBook Pro to a normal user is the same as recommending a Red camera to someone looking to shoot some vacation video.
To be completely fair, there was a bit of a difference and an optimized app will look a lot better, but it just wasn't enough to care. Apple can't exactly force every developer to roll to retina support and wait to release their product until then so they put out a very nice display and the market will have to adapt.
The shame is that consumers go to review sites thinking that these are consumer grade products. In honesty, gdgt and other reviewers should do a better job in describing the ideal use case for some of these devices. To me recommending this MacBook Pro to a normal user is the same as recommending a Red camera to someone looking to shoot some vacation video.
If that's the approach, first adopters are BBW, I agree. But I think that goes against the "Must Have" tag that has been applied to this item. Going back to my original point, I don't see why it's getting a recommended/must-have tag when it's obviously deficient right now. Or does the Must-Have tag just get applied to anything over 90% on a score?!
You do present a very valid point here. Its actually interesting to think of the "lifespan" lets say for a Must-Have tag.
Obviously today's smartphones will not be must-haves a year down the road, and it is easy to see in that direction. It is much trickier to think of a gadget as "before it's time" which is what you are suggesting.
So in your opinion it is not deserving of the tag now, but perhaps it will be later when the applications catch up to the display?
That's actually a very interesting thought
Obviously today's smartphones will not be must-haves a year down the road, and it is easy to see in that direction. It is much trickier to think of a gadget as "before it's time" which is what you are suggesting.
So in your opinion it is not deserving of the tag now, but perhaps it will be later when the applications catch up to the display?
That's actually a very interesting thought
I'm assuming by BBW you mean buyer beware — if so, that's overstepping what I meant a little. I wouldn't remotely call the system “obviously deficient,” and see the issue you're talking about, while real, as a small asterisk rather than a big deal.
I guess we're looking at the same facts, but valuing them differently.
I guess we're looking at the same facts, but valuing them differently.
Now this is just my opinion, but what differentiates this from other laptops with similar specs? To be honest, it's a combination of the hardware (because their designs really are great), and that glowing white Apple logo on the back. That's the truth, you're paying for the Apple brand. I believe that their prices are a bit expensive, yes, but what you get in return is a very good machine. So, to answer your last question there, yes I think so. Besides, if you customize a specced out Windows machine with the same resolution and same internals you would end up well over $1,500 too.
Well, I wasn't expecting this kind of discussion but I went to the Apple store and checked one out.
First off, it is a gorgeous screen. And apps that were designed for it do look gorgeous. Tremendous. Addicting. I would kill to see how this looks Bootcamped to Windows 7 and if 7 could handle it properly. I actually preferred things at the most zoomed-out level (I hope I got that right) while everything was tiny. As for the non-Retina-Ready™ apps, I was mostly standing and I think I was farther away from it than I'd be if actually using it, but I do admit that the non-Retina apps did not look that bad, not as bad as the reviews had me to believe.
Mea culpa.
Two things I noticed, tough:
Anyway, I'm sure you've all left by now (and I can't say I don't blame you) but I thought I'd share.
First off, it is a gorgeous screen. And apps that were designed for it do look gorgeous. Tremendous. Addicting. I would kill to see how this looks Bootcamped to Windows 7 and if 7 could handle it properly. I actually preferred things at the most zoomed-out level (I hope I got that right) while everything was tiny. As for the non-Retina-Ready™ apps, I was mostly standing and I think I was farther away from it than I'd be if actually using it, but I do admit that the non-Retina apps did not look that bad, not as bad as the reviews had me to believe.
Mea culpa.
Two things I noticed, tough:
- I took a good look at the Retina screen then cruised over and looked at the same app (Microsoft Word, not Retina-Ready™) on a standard MBP and I thought the regular MBP looked better. Just MO though.
- I started dragging around the window and noticed a tearing in the edges. Again, back on the MBP and the tearing was there too, but I had to search for it, looking real close and real hard. On the MBP w/Mega Awesome Retina display, it was very obvious. Looks like the tear was about 1 cm wide, may pixels. I tried on a few different, all Retina-Ready™ apps, and it was there too. Rather surprised by this. I refer back to my earlier statement: Jobs never would have let this happen.
Anyway, I'm sure you've all left by now (and I can't say I don't blame you) but I thought I'd share.
It isn't worse for any app that isn't designed for retina display. I have had a chance to play with these at the Apple store and all that happens for non-retina applications is that it will display the same as a normal app at a normal resolution. The retina display scales to provide an effective resolution of 1920x1200 (max). Just means you will have more pixels driving a lower virtual resolution. It in no way caused non-retina apps to "look bad".
Odd, that completely contradicts gdgt's review, engadgets, the verge's:
The Verge (www.theverge.com/2012/6/13/3082649/macbook-pro-rev...):
"all the text looks jagged and pixelated in a very grating way"
Engadget (www.engadget.com/2012/06/13/apple-macbook-pro-with...):
"Right now, seemingly every third-party app on the Mac looks terrible."
Gdgt (gdgt.com/apple/macbook-pro/with-retina-display/mid...):
"with jagged text and fuzzy graphics."
... so, considering everybody is calling this out, why is this a recommended product?
Say, for example, Apple released a new iPod and previously purchased songs sounded like crap (pops, cracks, whatever) while the new songs purchased sounded great, would it still be recommended??
The Verge (www.theverge.com/2012/6/13/3082649/macbook-pro-rev...):
"all the text looks jagged and pixelated in a very grating way"
Engadget (www.engadget.com/2012/06/13/apple-macbook-pro-with...):
"Right now, seemingly every third-party app on the Mac looks terrible."
Gdgt (gdgt.com/apple/macbook-pro/with-retina-display/mid...):
"with jagged text and fuzzy graphics."
... so, considering everybody is calling this out, why is this a recommended product?
Say, for example, Apple released a new iPod and previously purchased songs sounded like crap (pops, cracks, whatever) while the new songs purchased sounded great, would it still be recommended??
All I can tell you is that with my own eyes, running the display at the 1920x1200 setting and sitting at a normal distance from the screen there was absolutely nothing that looked all that bad to me when I had Chrome running on it. Was it as crisp as an app specifically tweaked for that display? No. But it sure as hell wasn't any worse then what every other display on the market looks like including my Late 2011 MacBook Air.
It is also worth noting that all these gadget and tech sites are probably talking about crazy zoomed in you can see that lines aren't crisp. So yes, if you put your eye 1" from the screen and open it really wide you will be able to see that it isn't super crisp. If this is how you use your computer on a day to day basis though then I feel very bad for you.
It is also worth noting that all these gadget and tech sites are probably talking about crazy zoomed in you can see that lines aren't crisp. So yes, if you put your eye 1" from the screen and open it really wide you will be able to see that it isn't super crisp. If this is how you use your computer on a day to day basis though then I feel very bad for you.
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