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If I was paying for that s**t and lost Vampire Weekend I just might firebomb Redmond!!

Yeah, I couldn't believe they didn't have Vampire Weekend! I just started using the software and it seems really slick, but there's no way I would consider signing up for a zune pass when they can't even lock down their content.

Spotify still has the rights to Vampire Weekend - I've really enjoyed using Spotify over the last year or two.

You just prevented me from buying a Zune today. Thanks for the info.

I assure you that's not what I was trying to accomplish...I love my Zune HD and the Zune software and I truly believe it's the best music experience out there. I do have beef with the Zune Pass though, and if the subscription service is your thing (also considering the topic of this post) then I guess avoiding the Zune might be best for you in particular. Also if you listen to popular music or bands signed to major record labels (most people do) then I think you would have significantly fewer problems with music disappearing...to the point of it not happening ever.

Like I've said multiple times, this disappearing music hasn't affected me because I personally own practically the full discography of all of the bands I listed.

'tis the world of music contracts. Especially for indie bands. I, myself, love Zune Pass as it helps me find new music. I don't think there is a better value for the $ out there since I get to keep 10 songs per month DRM free. Anyway, I'm sorry you lost some of the bands you like. Keep an eye out, they may be added back later.

Unfortunately iTunes is still the king in music contracts.

if i bought music i'd care ;)

Well my post is in more of a business/marketing standpoint because, again I don't actually use the zune pass so I did not lose any music myself, but I can only imagine the frustration of other people that do use zune pass and are now lacking in a significant number of tracks.

forums.zune.net­/569624­/ShowPost.aspx

news.cnet.com­/8301­-13526­_3­-10448211­-27.h...

www.engadget.com­/2010­/02­/04­/zune­-pass­-hi...

It's a pretty big deal, it happened weeks ago and it's still not fixed. It's just a great way to lose some of the very few customers Microsoft has...

@nizzy
I too acquire the majority of my music through other means and if it is worth buying for whatever reason I usually buy the CD so I can rip a lossless copy... the 256 kbps bitrate of most Zune Marketplace music is good for most, but listening through beats by dre. the lossless tracks really shine.

I too try to purchase direct from the artist or as a CD since CD sales still reflect a bands strength and they still receive more money from it (at least the good artists who have good deals and haven't been a**f**ked by the RIAA)...

I am really skeptical of how $15 a month for a million different songs really benefits most of those artists...

I'm betting thats why some are bailing...

yeaaaah....I have a hunch it has more to do with the record labels than the artists themselves. They are probably acting in the artists best interest though.

So judging from the artists missing stuff it looks like Merge Records (Spoon, Arcade Fire) and XL Recordings (Vampire Weekend, Ratatat, Sigur Ros) are the bailers...among many others I'm sure.

Personally I dont think its a big deal at all. Of course I assume the dropping of bands/albums had to do with the business side of it and is not a software glitch.
I do use the Zune Pass and having (from my collection) 1 band (actually it was just one dispatch album) not work is kinda like "Eh, whatever" because I still have the other...oh...few _thousand_ songs alive and kicking. If I really need something that no longer works with the infinite DLing I can use my 10 songs to "buy" it typically.

Of course I dont listen to any of the bands you listed so I suppose it would be a bigger deal (but prolly not for me) if I did.

Anyway back to my point. Unless it becomes an absolute torrent of record labels leaving the ZunePass its really just a drop in the bucket compared to what is availble and doesn't in the least diminish the value of the zunepass.

The disappearing content is not buyable using the 10 credits. It is completely unavailable, for listening or downloading.

Not to sound pretentious but this comes down to a simple disparity in the way we enjoy music. Yes there are still ass loads of songs to listen to but, hypothetically speaking, I wanted to listen to THAT song or THAT album not just any album. I don't listen to music because I like to hear noises or pleasant sounds, I listen to specific music because I have a passion for it.

Considering that you're paying a $15 monthly subscription service that previously included some particular song/album/artist and then that song/album/artist is just gone with no explanation, you can see why someone would be upset, especially if it was their favorite song/album/artist and now they have to find it on youtube in crappy quality or buy it on iTunes. Just painting a picture for you...

And again, this isn't really my problem, I'm bitching in place of all the people that are having issues, and I'm doing so because from a business standpoint this is a huge f**k up on Microsoft's part.

Sigh. I had a long expressive response typed out but it got a little too ridiculous haha.

A few bands vs the zune marketplace:
This is tough to argue since you don't actually use it yourself. If you did I would say that the true difference between how we enjoy music isn't that you "listen to more than just sounds" its that you expect something that doesnt in any way shape or form belong to you...to well belong to you. I do listen to more than just noise with my music. However the bands I am most passionate about, that I see in concert every possible time I can, whose albums I cant seem to ever get sick of...yeah I bought that music. The true beauty of the zune pass is to experience the MASSES - to try new stuff, to browse around and pick stuff randomly, stuff like that! If you dont need more than a few albums by your favorites...why the heck are you using it?

Its a problem that isn't a problem:
I don't know the cause of this dropping of music. And in a perfect world it is a problem no doubt about it. If its a lost contract MS should be trying to get them to come back. If its an expired contract MS shouldn't have waited for it to expire to renegotiate. If its a software glitch MS should have been all over the sh*t (they are a software company afterall!). Or heck the "evil" labels wouldn't have dropped in the first place!
But this isn't a perfect world and you should know that this is a music _leasing_ service. Its not yours, it never has, and until you buy it then it never will be. When one signs up for something where at any time the host can pull the plug and drop you out...then you need to be prepared. You know this could happen from day 1 then why is it such a big deal when a few (sorry but yes) cult bands are dropped? Big deal? Now realizing that its not your music? Drop the service and move on.

Anyway thats my opinion and its the basis of why I _currently_ love the zunepass.

This topic is amazing to me. It has little to do with Microsoft and everything to do with the record labels. I guess you can say MS didn't lock them into a binding enough agreement, but realistically, I doubt any label would commit to a hard-line agreement on something like renting out 'their' music. That's business, plain and simple.

The RIAA may have toned down their iron-clad DRM stance when it comes to Amazon, Zune and iTunes, but they're still rather draconian as a whole when it comes to distribution. I believe there was a recent story about Warner Music criticizing Last.FM or some other internet streaming service and speaking of them as a threat...and they're licensed to do what they do!

Bottom line, Zune Pass is a good and well thought out service. If you like an album that much, use your 10 free credits you get each month to buy it. Once it's bought, it can't be pulled from your player. And if it drops off Zune Pass before you can buy it there, buy it from Amazon, iTunes or pick up the CD. Don't case YouTube for it - that's what got us here in the first place.

$14.99 for thousands of songs whenever plus 10 free to keep each month? Come on. There's just not that much to complain about here people.

I suppose its not a big deal if you go into it know that music might disappear.... I don't think people think of music disappearing from iTunes or Amazon... rankinaaron listed some good music and any music lost from a service is pretty sad... I want to know what other bands have dropped the zune service and why... They were already one of the smaller services, so I had hoped they would be signing more acts, not less... yes, he and others could go buy those albums, but thats not the point... the point is they paid for a service which included certain acts... once those acts go, customers will go elsewhere like rankinaaron...

EXACTLY my point, thank you coologuy.

I did use Zune Pass for 2 to 3 months and experienced the discovery system, I do like it. The disappearing music had nothing to do with me discontinuing my service...I ended it because I prefer to buy CDs or get my music through other means. I still use Zune a lot for discovery though, with things like mixview and the 30 second previews are nice (note that I can't even preview any Vampire Weekend music in Zune, thereby deterring me from that band, the opposite of music discovery). I also wasn't trying to imply that other ppl just listen to "noise" I was trying to differentiate between different music...I'm saying that simply hearing something, anything, is not what I want from a subscription service. Obviously, I want to hear what I want to listen to, be it something I've heard before and love, or something new that I've never heard.

The most probable (almost definite) reason for the music disappearing is because of licensing. Rest assured I am fully aware that this is a LEASING service, meaning I do not own the music, but the part you seem to forget is that I may USE the music despite my lack of ownership. How can I USE the music when it is not there, whatsoever.

Analogy: I need a lawn mower, and in the future I anticipate needing several other types of lawn equipment. I go to a company that will lease me their entire warehouse of lawn care equipment for a monthly fee and they make it clear to me that their stock can change at any time. I start paying for the service and end up using the lawn mower, weed eaters, what have you. One day I come into the warehouse to grab the lawn mower and it's gone without notice. Do I keep paying for the service? Of course not, I needed a lawn mower. It's nothing personal, I may not even be angry because I knew their stock could change, but it doesn't change the fact that I need a lawn mower, so I cancel their service. Should I have purchased a lawn mower permanently? Probably. Can I from that company? No, I have to go to a different one. KABLOW Supply and Demand. Economics. A company (Microsoft) that will have less paying customers.

What people don't understand is that this doesn't work like a math equation. 6 kagillion songs does NOT negate the few songs/albums that are missing. Why? Because song A does not equal song B. They are unique, every one of them.

Anyway this is getting far too complicated. Coologuy summed it up perfectly in saying that a decrease in any type of music is a shame, when one would expect the service to be expanding.

You are correct about the math thing and between that and your analogy (which uses a single important piece) its obvious that we are fundamentally disagreeing about the worth of a single band in the service vs the worth of the entirety of the service.

Sorry I was too focused on the issue to see that before T_T Sometimes I get tunnel vision on the arguement haha!

My final question is that we see the decrease because its so public, but does anyone know the service isn't expanding for a fact?

I get what you're saying. I defend the service assuming that MS has done what they could to keep the labels from pulling certain tunes. Again, since the labels aren't likely to get themselves locked into a subscription service to the point of not being able to pull their content, I can't imagine what could have prevented this. It's just an inherent risk taken when subscribing to such a service.

Say tomorrow all the labels decide streaming music is hurting their revenue and they pull licensing from Last.FM, Pandora, etc. Do we blame the streaming services or the RIAA? If the labels have had music up on Zune for a while and aren't making any money off it (save for what MS pays in licensing costs) where's the incentive for them to continue to offer it? And how could MS stop them from taking what they 'own' and leaving?

I guess I just didn't understand the demonization of MS and the Zune Pass service. It's a fine enough service for what it is. If you hear something you really like, use your credits or your own money to buy it. $15 a month is pretty cheap when you consider simply the number of tunes available and the fact that you're looking at $10 worth of free songs to keep each month. If it's something I love, I would buy it anyway. You're not gonna find any of my core music tied to the Zune Pass for that very reason.

always blame the RIAA... in every case

their problems with last.fm, pandora...

their suing anyone with an internet connection..

their presence on the grassy knoll...

failing to see the potential of napster...

the cold war....

the boy band craze of the mid-90's....

its always the RIAA's fault...

That is a valid point indeed and in fact I would be willing to bet that it is, as a whole, expanding.

Hypothetical question for whoever wants to answer:

The zune pass service currently allows access to "over 6 million" songs.

For those of you who subscribe, suppose the zune subscription actually allowed access to double what it is now, say 12 million songs, for the same $15 a month price and the same "keep 10" system. Now lets say there are 1000 songs that you listen to or occasionally listen to through the Zune pass subscription service, meaning that you do not own them, you are simply leasing them. Now say that the zune subscription service suddenly lost half of its library, of which exactly half of the songs that you occasionally or regularly listen to are a part, leaving you with 500 of your songs, and the familiar 6 million that we see in reality, and the price and keep 10 system stayed the same.

Would you continue your service or cancel it?

you just blew my freaking mind!! j/k

I'm curious what people think about this?

6 million or 12 million songs... we really only consistently listen to a very small amount... (repeatedly)

lol well...the point of my question is to show that the numbers are kind of arbitrary because they're so large. The large numbers aren't really what matters, it's the 500 missing that does. Is there a noticeable difference between 6 million and 12 million songs? Probably less noticeable than half of the music you normally listen to missing.

Wah! My response was lost!

Something to the effect of:
60% of my music listening is "passion bands" those I love and can't replace - almost all is non-zunepass
40% is random all + misc zunepass bands

I couldn't say for certain but I imagine that the 40% has a similar amount of still available bands (post half cut) that I could like. But either way my answer has to be: Nothing really changes for me because I evaluate the worth of the service on a month to month basis and I would continue to do so.

Continue. 500 songs at $1 a song is $500 to buy. $500 divided by $15 a month is roughly 33 months of Zune Pass service. And since you're still getting the 10 free songs a month, you could use that amortization over the 33 months to whittle away at the $500 cost you would incur to buy all that music.

last.fm and pandora and the zillion other music streaming sites are free and that $15 a month could buy 1 new CD a month or a crapload of used CDs.... I think we're really just attacking the problem from different sides.. I still prefer my side better since I own 100% of the music and microsoft gets not a dime... nothing against microsoft - I just pay the people directly in the industry... just like when we go to concerts... don't forget you can buy most bands whole discography for $15 at a used music store....


its really just whats more convenient to you.... :)

the $15 for 1 new CD a month is important as well because I don't think I've bought 12 NEW CD's in a year since forever... so you can put that money towards tons of used CD's and rip the music at the quality level YOU DECIDE...

I am a collector at heart though.. I recognize that... Not just music, I collect movies, comic books, laserdiscs, minidiscs, game consoles, TV's, sports memorabilia.. lots of stuff... I guess this feeds into that... but thats my personal issue...

Yeah I'd say I'm somewhat of a pack rat too especially when it comes to my music. What the Zune Pass did for me was fill those tiny niches that I don't really want to keep forever, but I'd like to have to listen (that and the discovery aspect).

Real life scenario of how Zune Pass was awesome when I had it:
I was "DJing" a formal (meaning I was just picking the music off my zune) when a bunch of people started coming up to me and giving me requests. They wanted Miley Cyrus "Pary in the USA" and Britney Spears and the Electric slide....you know those kinds of spectacular guilty pleasures that we all want to freak out to when we're wasted/being stupid. Obviously I didn't own them, being the self respecting person that I am (just kidding for all your people who dig that kind of stuff). All I had to do was download them on my wifi connection, or even just stream them and I had them instantly in high/descent quality. Nothing compared to the shit that we would've heard if we played a youtube video.

Anyway that niche was too small to be worth it for me personally. Also I'm poor and already pay for Netflix and Xbox live haha.

My problem with Microsoft & there selling music, Something Similar to this happened before & also with Yahoo music, but except they closed down & people that I knew got straight ripped off because they just ended the company on all of there customers & they had no way to retrieve or keep there music that they already purchased or at least paid for that month & that is the reason why I have not bought a Microsoft Zune & will not until they get some stability with there other products, until then I will only purchase the windows OS & MS office, but anything that has music I will pass because today Microsoft is selling music & tomorrow if it does not make a ton of money then they will not be selling music anymore. I am sorry on the music purchase & download tip Apple is more dependable in that area at least to me.

I don't quite understand how people got ripped off. The service went defunct. What could have been done on Yahoo's part? If a subscription service dies, the music you're renting dies with it. I personally had a Sansa Connect tied to Yahoo Music. One day, all my subscription tracks stopped working. Wasn't much to be done about it; they closed up shop and that was that. They stopped providing, I stopped paying.